STORIES OF COMMUNITY RESILIENCE
Episode Description
Ruhee Meghani, founder of Allied Collective – Australia’s first inclusive facilitation and wellbeing agency, interviews Jamal Hakim – City of Melbourne Councillor and Lord Mayor Candidate. Together they discuss Jamal’s professional background, the importance of community values, and principle based politics.
Transcript
Note: this transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.
Ruhee Meghani : Hello everyone. And you’re listening to 3ZZZ Stories of Community Resilience. My name is Ruhee Meghani my pronouns are she and her. And I’m the founder of Allied Collective, Australia’s first inclusive facilitation and wellbeing agency. I’d firstly like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we gather. The Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. We recognise that sovereignty has never been ceded and this was and always will be Aboriginal land. And today, with me, I have someone really special. His name is Jamal Hakim. He is the first councillor of Melbourne from the MENA, Middle East and North African region and heritage. He is also a polyglot. He speaks Arabic, Japanese, French, Spanish and English, and most excitingly, he is currently running for Lord mayor. So Jamal, thank you so much for being here with me today.
Jamal Hakim : Thanks for having me. Really. It’s such a pleasure.
Ruhee Meghani : And, Jamal, we know about the work that you do in communities and all of the work you’ve been involved with, especially within multicultural communities in Melbourne and even outside of it. And we hear so much about that. But I want to hear about Jamal’s story. So can we hear about who Jamal is? What is your story?
Jamal Hakim : That’s a big question. Thank you Ruhee. Who is Jamal? And, um, just to correct maybe the record, I am just a beginner in French and starting to learn Spanish. So two languages I’m tackling at the moment.
Ruhee Meghani : Being very humble [laughter].
Jamal Hakim : I guess maybe that’s, you know, that’s the thing migrants is a multicultural community. Often a lot of our communities, we’re very humble. Uh, we don’t like to profile ourselves. It’s one of our challenges in getting into positions of leadership in Australia and building that. I guess that’s where my journey started. Maybe if I tell you a little bit about myself, not don’t talk about myself very often, I was born in Kuwait, actually, and my parents left Kuwait. I have Lebanese heritage. We left Kuwait just before the Gulf War and went to primary school in Abu Dhabi before migrating to Australia. And I grew up in Canberra, where my mum is a single mother, raised us, three boys and I went to uni at ANU. I did a Bachelor of Commerce and majored in accounting and international business. So I am an accountant. I’m sorry people [laughter]. And I also majored I did a Bachelor of Asian Studies, so I majored in Japanese and Japanese linguistics. And that’s where I got a chance to actually live in Japan. That’s why I speak fluent Japanese. I love the Japanese language, their culture, and they were our biggest trading partner at the time when I was at uni. So really important one as well. As well as wanting to be able to watch a drama, J-pop and manga read manga fluently as well, which was really great. But I was always an entrepreneur too, you know, growing up family in business.
Jamal Hakim : So I grew up with around business, doing things in the entrepreneurial networks. I was part of Young Achievement Australia. I was a Rotary Youth Leadership Award recipient, so I did so many of those things when I was younger. And one of the biggest things for me was how do we make the world a fairer place? Having seen what happened in Kuwait, having seen, you know what? My journey was coming here as a young person around ten years old, with the racism, with the bullying that happened when I was younger. One of the things that my mum instilled in me is always look at people as human beings, and you should always be good to people and remember that people are going through something. So whatever the reactions, they’re going through something. And so there’s always ways to help and for us to find the good in people. So I always approached it from how do we create better things for all of us. And I wanted to do that. But, um, we lost our business when I was young during university. So after university, I went straight into the workforce to support mum and be able to kind of rebuild things. And so I started my career during the GFC of all times. So talk about the crisis that’s happening now. Exactly. Great timing. So in 2008, I started my first job out of university in at superannuation actually. So I was working in superannuation, of all things superannuation was losing lots of money and it was a really eye opening experience.
Jamal Hakim : I had six month role where I was working directly with one of the executives at Mercer, and really looking at where people’s superannuation was at and reporting them accurately. And that took me then to manufacturing, and I went into a manufacturing role in management accounting before becoming a commercial manager at the Port of Melbourne Corporation. So I’ve moved industries quite a lot. At the same time, being in many will understand this when you’re from a migrant background. I was still doing my weekend job, so I was still working in retail in David Jones, and I loved it because you got to talk to so many people, and the best thing is you got a discount on clothes. Yes, but that kind of brought me to then the point in my life where I went, great, I’m now a commercial manager. I’m doing this role where I am advising on commercial ways that we can make more money through the port for the state government, ultimately for taxpayers, and how we can do this better for our economy. I was seeing this preview of what our economy looked like through what comes in in the port. I’ve done finance through so many different industries. I thought, I want to do something that has some public good. So I put it out there, and I believe in putting it out there to the world. And I thought, I want a role that allows me to use my expertise in finance, in my commercial acumen, and also allows me to bring social good to the world.
Jamal Hakim : And I got tapped on the shoulder for working at an organization called MSI. So at the time, I had no idea who MSI was. Obviously the largest nonprofit women’s health organization in Australia, one of the largest in the world, delivering sexual and reproductive health for women and pregnant people everywhere. And I started there as a CFO, went to COO and then finished up as CEO. And I finished that role early last year, and that allowed me to use my skills as well as advocate for women’s health rights around Australia. And that journey was quite a big journey for me. I spent ten years in that, in those three roles working for that organisation, and was able to be part of decriminalisation across Australia, meaning that women and pregnant people everywhere in this country can have access to a reproductive health care, to abortion care and we worked really hard around how we created programs for contraception care. And so I saw what it meant to do that and how to do that. And one of the things that I saw as part of that was ministers who would sit there and listen. And when you finish telling them the lived experience, particularly of women of color who couldn’t afford services, who didn’t have access to the things they needed to continue their lives, who had major impacts on their health as a result and turn around.
Jamal Hakim : And this is a direct quote from a minister. I won’t say who it is, but they said, thank you so much for letting us know and sharing this experience of, say, ‘Mary’, let’s we’ll give her that name and we’ll see what we can do in the next three years. I’m like, I’m sorry, Minister, three years doesn’t cut it. She needs help now. Yeah. She might not be here in three years time. As a result of what’s going on. So I realized, we know we’ve got to change the power structures. We need to be able to drive things so that we are represented in positions of power and leadership. And at the time I finished my JD as well. So I was doing a postgraduate of law. So I’m a sucker for punishment. And I decided, you know what? I’m going to have a go and see what happens. Like and running for local government and particularly at the time this was the pandemic. In 2020, there was the lockdowns of the public housing towers here in Melbourne. And of course, that impacted people of color, that impacted migrant refugee communities who had no say, who were marginalized and who when there was an outbreak, quote, unquote, and the police were sending them. Now that was found as a human rights violation under our Human Rights charter. To this date, no real apology. And so at the time I went, you know what? This would not happen if we had people who understood what that means in a position of power, who could turn around and say, “Minister, this is not on.”
Jamal Hakim : You want to do this? There’s another way of doing this. You didn’t send the police in for those towers in Toorak, but you did when it came to Carlton and North Melbourne and Flemington. So this clearly indicated and showed that we are as as migrants, as refugees, as people of colour. We are second class citizens. And so there’s only one way to reclaim power is to be in those positions of power, to put people in positions of power who can speak for us on our behalf, to create space for us to be able to come in and have those conversations in our own language as well. By the way, not just in the way that, is, we’re told we must speak. And so I thought, I can’t see people in these positions, so I’m going to do it. And if anything, I create the space for the conversation and for others to also put their hand up because you can’t be what you can’t see. Absolutely. And I won, and I got elected, through a series of events. And I spent the last four years really working closely with community and seeing how this thing works and understanding where the deficiencies are, understanding what we need to do to ensure that every single person is represented, that we have a welcoming, thriving community as well. And that’s why I’m running for Lord mayor.
Ruhee Meghani : Wow, I have so many questions and sentiments and feelings. And firstly, thank you for sharing your story. And I’m so firstly inspired and this really is the perfect example of, if not me, who else? And this sense of. Be the change you wish to see in the world, and you are actually making that change and being part of that change.
Jamal Hakim : And can I add just one thing to that? Really, I think what’s important and I think you’re completely right. We have to actually step up and try to create that space. And I think the biggest or also the other thing to add to it is also how do we support others to do that. So for me, everyone goes, oh, what if this happens? What if that happens? Or, you know, I’ve got a little bit of power. How do I hold on to it? No, no, no, I want to make sure that we’ve got an entire group of people who will start standing up, who I want to support as well, to get into positions of power, whether that’s on board tables, whether it’s executive positions or in politics. And so maybe one of the things I’d call out if anybody is thinking about that. More than happy to have a chat, because we’ve got to support each other to to pull each other up. Absolutely.
Ruhee Meghani : And this is, again, such a generous view of when we view power as a structure and we know that, you know, things need to change at in systems, policies and processes. And we can’t change those things unless like you said, we have representation at those tables. So again, so inspired by the actual work you’re doing. And it shows up in the work you do and the impact you’re having within the community. And having had such a an inspiring journey. And it hasn’t been easy from what I’m hearing. How do you find, or what does resilience mean to you? Because we’re talking about resilience today. So can you tell people who are listening and who are, fighting constantly structures of power that are built against us How do you find resilience, Jamal?
Jamal Hakim : That is a really good question. I think, you know, resilience is different for everyone, but I am very much, I guess, driven by what I was taught by my mother and my family and, the community around me. And that, willingness to, I guess, just do things and not be dissuaded by anybody else. I’ve learnt from, I guess, and maybe we see there’s two ways people can go about when you’re when you’re faced with adversity, when you’re faced with racism, when you’re faced with difficult situations, you either allow that to crush you. And unfortunately, you know, sometimes that happens and that can lead into mental health issues, depression. And we all feel that at different times. And I felt that at different times. And the pressure to excel as well as, But often in our migrant communities, as people of color, we often have this pressure, you know? Right. We’ve got to be doctors and engineers and lawyers and make a big living. And. Et cetera. Et cetera. so those pressures are all there. I think what’s important, though, is to the other way and sorry, that’s the first thing. Is it it you could be crushed by that. And those pressures could mean that you end up in depression or you end up doing things that aren’t aligned with your values.
Jamal Hakim : Or you could actually drive, change or work really hard on yourself so that you do drive that change and you become more resilient. And I think that’s the key here is it’s got to be self-led. I’ve been really lucky to have a lot of coaching. I haven’t had many mentors. I’ve been I’m very close to my mum and my mum’s been my biggest mentor and supporter and advocate and I think that’s been the person in my corner who’s always lifted me up when I needed it. And I’ve learned from my mom to always, you know, bet on yourself and to just pick yourself up and keep going. Every single thing that happens is a lesson and it’s okay. So when when things go wrong, they’re lessons. They’re not things. No matter how you feel at the time. And sometimes it feels really shitty and it can be really bad. And we I used to if I’m in a really horrible mood, I’d go and sit down and there’d be a particular TV show I’d watch, you know, have a, have a bit of ice cream and then have a good sleep and then next day get up and then get out there and do something else. And as I’ve, I guess, grown up and gone through experiences and particularly the last ten years, which have been really hard, uh leading organizations and particularly MSI.
Jamal Hakim : I’ve realized that what you have to do is, is definitely take those lessons, is have really good people around you. So I call the others energy vampires, the detractors, the negative voices that keep kind of pulling your strings and trying to bring you down. And I think sometimes you’ve just got to recognize that actually, what you need to do is make sure you’re in a positive environment and that you take the things that go wrong as lessons, you build on them and you do something else like I’ve it’s always win, win. That’s my mind. Always find the win win. We will never build a stronger community or a stronger self by playing win lose games. We have to play win win games. And when you play win win games, you start getting to the point where actually you build your resilience because in fact, it’s just the next stepping point. And you know what the journey is? Half the half the fun. Yeah. Like getting there is actually really boring. You get there and you go, oh, now I’ve got whatever you want, whether it’s money, car, house, relationships, whatever it is that you’re kind of thinking about, it’s like you’ve got it. Yeah. What next? Yeah. So I think the journey is actually the fun part.
Ruhee Meghani : I completely agree.
Jamal Hakim : And that builds a resilience, right?
Ruhee Meghani : 100% when it comes to, like you said, win win situations. What I’m hearing is, you know, finding your people and betting on yourself and really backing yourself, especially in times of trials and tribulations when it comes to politics. And I know the youth might relate to this. The world might seem like such a dark place. It’s hard to stay positive, especially when it comes to the politics side of things. But now more than ever, we need more youth representation and representation at all levels. When it comes to getting our voices heard. Can politics be a win win situation?
Jamal Hakim : 100% and politics should be a win win situation. I think unfortunately, people are using politics to do a win lose or lose lose situation. In fact, I think we are in a cycle of lose lose. No one’s winning. Like, I’m sorry, no one’s winning with what’s happening today in politics. Not community, not politicians. No one’s winning. We’ve got a couple of individuals who think they’re winning, but what horrible lives they lead. The key here, I think, is about values. And that’s what I come back to. And the biggest thing on the most. I think one of the most profound things I did with my coach once is I did a values exercise, and I spent quite a bit of time. I hadn’t done it before. I’d done so many different exercises and coaching sessions, and I eventually I did this values exercise and I guess it’s time and place, right? So sometimes you’re just not in the right space. But when you get to it and it just hits the right note, it just sticks. And I did a values exercise and I got to what are my top three values. My real top three values, not the ones you might just rattle off because you think that’s what people want to hear. But my the values that I will never break.
Jamal Hakim : The values where I will stand up and stand up against every single person in the room. Because that’s what my values are. And for me, it’s integrity. It’s community, and it’s adventure. And when I came to that realization and I had a moment where I said, you know what? That’s it. When I do things, as long as I’m doing them in accordance with my values, in line with my values, that comes back to my behavior. That’s what I can control what other people do, that’s on them. And so from my values, I do everything in line with my values now. And I make sure that I’m delivering to those. And that’s how I get to the win win too. Because for me community and you know, having, you know, moved here with my mom, with my parents getting divorced and having all sorts, I guess, family unit being broken, I’ve had to make my own new family in Australia, and we all have. And so many of us as migrants, you know, that’s the story, right? We build new community. And so building that community is so important. And that’s based on trust and that’s based on doing the right thing for our community ultimately. And so for me, it was always about finding that win win. That means that, hey, yes, maybe this doesn’t quite go right But if I’m getting to the position where we’re actually achieving things and I’m doing it for the right reasons, that’s that’s what the win win then gets to for me.
Jamal Hakim : And we keep building on that and we build on that and we build on that. So yeah, I think those values are really critical. And I’d say, you know, if you haven’t thought about your values, have a deep think about values. Like for anyone who’s listening, I think this is really important because then it also gives you an understanding of other people. So for other people that I might meet, I often go, oh, so they’ve done it a bit differently from me. It’s not a bad thing, but it’s then what does that tell me about their values? So for those who might lie and cheat, for example, this is made a lot of them. In politics, the value of integrity isn’t the top of their list. So there are other values might be on top of the list. Things like potentially loyalty to party. So you see a lot of people do whatever it takes, toe the party line. And I completely disagree with that, because that doesn’t mean you’re achieving the right things for community. That’s my value.
Ruhee Meghani : Community. And those are flexible values that kind of shapeshift and change depending on the situation, rather than using them as North stars and kind of like guiding light of this is going to inform how I show up in the world 100%.
Jamal Hakim : Exactly. So it’s really important to be able to, you know, for us to get to this win win. And I guess maybe coming back to your question, apologies. But I do think politics can be a win win situation. But we’ve got to change the face of politics. We as people have to take politics back because that’s the point. Politics is about democracy. So let’s bring it back to what? What’s reality? Why does politics exist? Politics exists because we have a democratic system. So let’s make sure that democracy works for us and it represents us Source and that the politics is about democracy, not about the people who are in power because they’re public servants. That’s what it is. It’s about service. It’s about service to our community. And when you’re serving the community, it’s a win win. When you’re serving higher powers of people sitting in their ivory towers with lots of money or with self-interest, that’s bad politics. But good politics is about serving the community and being a public servant and service to others. And that’s what I want to see back.
Ruhee Meghani : That’s amazing. And now more than ever, we’re really starting to see that collective shift of the power of the people. So when it comes to multicultural communities, the youth and other underserved communities like, you know, the disabled community, the LGBTQIA+ community, and the intersections of them. So, you know, we often put into boxes as quote unquote ‘Marginalized’. How can we show up in in politics to make it a win win situation for all of us? And what is some advice or some action that you have for someone who wants to advocate and make that tangible change, but may not necessarily know where to start?
Jamal Hakim : Good question Ruhee. I think, you know, I was, I guess, thinking about that a lot before I ran for the first time in 2020, which is how do we make a change, how do we make that change so that we’re represented? How do we make that change? So the things that matter to us are considered. And there’s a couple of things. So first of all if you’ve got the ability or even if you don’t, if you have the interest and you want to run for local government run, even the experience of running gives you an understanding of how the system works. So, that was really my biggest thing When I ran 2020, I didn’t run to win council. I ran to understand the system that actually shapes our lives every day, but we know so little about it. So it’s not the act of winning that gives us power. It’s the act of running, of putting our hand up and saying, I exist. I am here, my voice matters. That’s what gives us power. Because you know what happens then? People go, oh, shit, they’re putting their hand up, I better listen. Either they’re going to win this time, or next time or the time after that. And so we better do something about that.
Jamal Hakim : So we need to get to principle based politics as opposed to identity politics. And that’s what makes difference. So put your hand up whether you are political or not, whether you’ve got the capability or not. Don’t worry about your English. Don’t worry about whatever other blocks you think are in your way. Just do it because we have communities around who will support you or support someone who does. So that’s the second thing is we have to start supporting people who are putting their hand up. We have an issue where we get divided. We’re called, we’re and this is where intersectionality matters. We’re told, oh, you’re from the disability community or you’re from the Lebanese community, or you’re your Christian, your Muslim, your Jewish. That’s ways of dividing us. We need to actually recognize that there is humanity in all of us. There’s intersections that connect us all, and it comes back to those core principles that we have as human beings or as different peoples. So find those with principles that you can support and support them. People are putting their hand up and you can put your hand up and support someone who can get interested. If you think that that politics doesn’t affect you. It does.
Ruhee Meghani : Absolutely does.
Jamal Hakim : It affects every single one of us at every level. So there are really two easy ways to do that. Volunteer. So you know, you buy support to support someone. You can volunteer if you can afford it. Donate, share and have conversations. Talk to candidates. If someone’s not willing to listen to you and reflect your views in what they’re talking about, they don’t have the same principles as you. They don’t have the values that you care about. Find someone else. And that’s what matters. I’ve spent so much time talking to people over the last four years, and the biggest thing I get is I feel unheard. I feel like I talk over and over and over and nobody actually listens. No one puts things in place. So what’s the point? And I say, well, the point is, let’s change the system. I’m not playing the same game. I’m playing a different game, one where we bring back democracy from a principles approach, not the party politics. Not this bad, self-interested politics, principle based democracy. That’s what we need.
Ruhee Meghani : That is so powerful, and also the power in that we all have a voice, and there is power on each and every voice that we can use to leverage the change that we want to see.
Jamal Hakim : To maybe just to add to that, if I can. I think there’s also a misconception that you have to act the same way that the dominant culture acts to be heard, and I think that’s wrong. I think we need to actually create spaces for every different member of our community to be heard in a way that they feel comfortable, safe and able to. And that’s the power of principle based democracy and and people who are putting their hand up, who understand what that means. So sitting down, for example, with aunties and over coffee and listening to them, and most of the conversation being about nothing to do with their needs and just having a chat with kids while the kids are running around. And then the last two minutes, then you get the gold nuggets. That’s what it’s about in in certain communities. Like I know that like sitting, with aunties all the time and half the conversations got nothing to do with what they need. But it’s about building trust. For example, and they want to know that you can you’re going to commit and be there and listen. And sometimes it takes a number of goes to build that trust relationship. So you want people who are prepared to do that. And if they’re not prepared to do that, you want people who can you can help within the community to do that. And so that you heard or that your way of speaking comes through. I think we’ve got to be really also mindful of that, because often what I’m seeing is this sort of channeling into this is how we engage with communities. And if you don’t fill out a survey online, then oh, too bad we surveyed people. But it’s like, yes, there’s no one way.
Jamal Hakim : That’s not there’s no one way. And you’re you’re in in facilitation. And it’s so terrific to see your work as well because that’s the thing, right? Different people respond to different ways of working and different ways of engagement. And so we’ve got to change ourselves to support other people, not the other way around. I don’t want our we have such rich cultures within Australia. We should be so proud of that. And we should actually be inclusive of that. And being inclusive means recognizing those cultures and changing the way we work in a multitude of ways, just like we do with business when we are in business. As a manager, I will change my management style and my leadership style depending on the employee. I will work with this person in this way because I know that’s their characteristics, because that’s how I can get the best out of them. And this way, this way with this person, because I get the best out of them. So we know it. So why can’t we do it when it comes to community? Because we don’t see the value in it, because community doesn’t speak up and votes anyway. So it’s time for us to change that.
Ruhee Meghani : Absolutely. And also this misnomer of there’s a one size fits all approach because there isn’t 100%. This has been so powerful. Before we wrap up this episode, what is something that you want to tell the listeners of this podcast? Some action you want them to take?
Jamal Hakim : Ohh, One action. If there’s one action, I think you would take that. I asked listeners to take is spend the time to really understand what the politics in your community looks like when it comes to those representing you local, state and federal. Now more than ever, our communities are speaking up because it’s become so obvious, so darn obvious that we aren’t represented. We have a population where around 55% of people are born overseas, or their parents are born overseas, yet in positions of power, we are not represented. We’re not represented in with people who look, sound and work like us. And neither are we represented by people who have values or those basic principles that represent us. So we’ve got to make sure we change the system. So to do that, educate yourself and really look at who is in your local community and if there isn’t. Talk to your elders. Talk to your young people. Let’s support particularly young people to see different ways of getting into politics, to get into leadership positions, whatever it may be, so that they’re supported by communities so that when they get there, they don’t owe anyone anything except their community. Let’s not make young people and people who are putting their hand up have a loyalty to those who don’t mean us well, let’s make sure that we as a community bring them up so that when they stand tall, they know where their loyalty lies, and that’s to community. And so when it comes to it, they will do what we need them to do. They will support community, they will deliver for community, and they will act for community. And so there’s whatever that means for you, I think makes sure that you do it you support, you stand up and let’s build and change this to a more democratic nation that actually is livable for every single person, and that understands and hears every single one of these voices.
Ruhee Meghani : Such a powerful note to end on, Jamal. How can people get in touch with you?
Jamal Hakim : You can follow me on any of the socials using my handle at @theJamalHakim. So you know, the Jamal Hakim I’m the only one, of course [laughter]. And you can check out my campaign website teamhakim.au
Ruhee Meghani : Oh we’ll pop it in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for your time, your energy and all this wisdom. Thanks for chatting with me, Jamal.
Jamal Hakim : Thanks, Ruhee. Thanks for having me today.
[End of Transcript]
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