STORIES OF COMMUNITY RESILIENCE
Episode Description
Maggie Zhou wears many hats. She’s a writer, editor, podcaster, content creator, speaker, emcee… and more that we couldn’t possibly fit into a list here.
The topics Maggie Zhou coversin her work range from sustainability, internet and pop culture to fashion. You might have readher pieces in some of the country’s top culture publications, perhaps you follow her for (slow)fashion tips or maybe this is the first time her name has come across your orbit.
Maggie Zhou has a unique and authentic presence you’ve got to keep an eye on.
Louis Harrison chats with Maggie Zhou about her experience connecting with culture from the other side of the world, the way she communicates with others and her experience developing resilience despite microaggressions and prejudice in society.
Transcript
Note: This transcript is automatically generated and may contain errors.
Louis Harrison: Before we begin today, we’d like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we broadcast the Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung and Bunurong peoples and the lands our content reaches. We’d like to extend that respect to any Aboriginal listeners tuning in today. Sovereignty was never ceded. This land always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Maggie Zhou wears many hats. She’s a writer, editor, podcaster, content creator, speaker, emcee, and more that we just couldn’t possibly fit into a list here. You might have read her pieces in some of the country’s top culture publications. Perhaps you follow her for slow fashion tips. Or maybe this is the first time her name has come across your orbit. Either way, Maggie Zhao has a unique and authentic presence you’ve got to keep an eye on. Thanks so much for joining us.
Maggie Zhou: Oh, thank you so much. That was a very flattering introduction. I’m just here blushing and sweating a little bit. No, that’s actually me right now in the in the presence of one of my idols, I might say. Oh stop it, you’re too sweet. But I’m so excited to be here and to chat with you today.
Louis Harrison: Well, thanks so much. And for people in that last boat that are just hearing about you for the first time, could you give us the Maggie 101?
Maggie Zhou: Oh, The Maggie 101 – I love that! As you mentioned, I do wear a lot of hats. I went freelance this year, so I predominantly work as a writer and content creator and podcaster. I co-host the Culture Club podcast with one of my best friends, Jasmine Wallace Love. And I am Melbourne born and bred. My parents both came from China and I’ve got two sisters also here With me, and that’s kind of my 101. Amazing. We love it. So we are here to talk about resilience and your experience in multiple areas of your life, especially in your career, but also your personal and how you interact with different facets of culture. I am wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you connect with your culture in everyday life? Yeah, I think this is a really interesting question, because if you had asked me this four years ago, if you had asked me this eight years ago, my answer would have changed completely. So if we’re looking at current day meme, I’m someone who is so proud of being Chinese, and I’m also someone who has quite like a complicated relationship with, like, my cultural heritage. I don’t speak Mandarin, really. Like I did lessons for almost a decade and it was honestly hell on earth for me. But it’s something I, you know, I wish I could do. Yeah. In terms of family, like physical family in Australia or even like this continent, it’s just my immediate family and then my mum’s sister’s family.
Maggie Zhou: So most of, like, my relatives really live, literally on the other side of the world, it feels like. So it’s like, okay then what is my connection to culture? I’ve learned that it is something intrinsic. I mean, it literally runs through my blood, and it’s something that I want to embrace more and get to know more. So I’m sure we might talk about it later, but I did. I did go to China last year for the first time in about let me quickly do the maths like 12 years or something like that first time as an adult. And that really, um, strengthened that bond. Yeah. Incredible. And I did see that you had gone over to China. And that kind of very nicely leads us into the next part of this conversation. Um, heading to China and sort of I’m wondering if going to China kind of helped you connect with your culture more and really sort of cemented your place in your self determining and figuring out who you are. I mean, it both brought me closer and it also made me feel more further apart to my family. Brought me closer because being surrounded by so many relatives like I think we were at a lunch once with 50 people and I was like, I can’t believe I’m kind of related to everybody here.
Maggie Zhou: I’d never had that experience and that was amazing, right? And there is so much there’s so much familiarity there that is there without the language. So for instance, just the way that I can see people interacting and mannerisms and body language and the way that we look the same and all those things were really comforting to me. But then the other half of it is like, wow, like my family. Wow. We are getting personal. But but wow. Like, there is so much life that is being lived away from me, and that’s just happening externally, and I’m not really a part of that because like, I know especially, I’m thinking like my cousin’s kids who are quite young, you know, around like 3 to 12 years old, I’m just some distant relative from Australia that’s visiting for like a week or two. And I know that’s what I will be to them, not, you know, someone that’s really close in their life. Mhm. I forgot the other part of your question but that’s where that took me.
Louis Harrison: That is so fine. And it’s really interesting to hear you sort of go so personal into that, and to hear that sort of juxtaposition between getting closer to your culture and feeling further away. I’m wondering if living in a Western country like Australia also plays a role in how you sort of feel almost estranged from your family across the world. Like, is that an experience that you feel? How does that sort of play into your life?
Maggie Zhou: I mean, I think growing up in Australia has informed so much of my identity. I do think sometimes, like, what type of person would I be if I didn’t grow up here? I actually think so much. So many of my interests would be changed. So many of my values would be changed. So much of like my connection to myself would have like would have changed, right? So it’s something I’m so grateful to have grown up here, and I really love my life here. It’s definitely informed who I am and I don’t I, I get a bit fatigued, I guess, from like the typical, I would say like the ethnic kind of upbringing stories that we hear a lot when you’re a person of colour growing up in Australia, and it’s always that thing of like, you’re bullied in primary school, people made fun of you for your lunch and all that jazz, and it’s all so true. And there is a time and space for those conversations. But I feel like I spent so much of my early, like, early writing career and a lot of my like early uni days, even like unpacking that and unpacking that and unpacking that, that I kind of just want to move past it because I think that I experienced so much internalized racism, and I guess I’m proud that I’ve overcome a lot of it. Obviously, it’s still there, but it’s like, I don’t even want to give it that much oxygen sometimes just because I’m like, we’ve had that conversation. I want to, like, continue past it.
Louis Harrison: That really makes sense. And that very much is on theme with the building resilience in multicultural communities and things like that. And I think it’s so interesting to hear you give that perspective and really like that whole not giving it oxygen and not sort of feeding the fire almost is a really interesting take. So thank you so much for sharing that one. I’m going to pivot a little bit. I want to talk a little bit about microaggressions, which is something that a lot of people of color do face. It’s something that a lot of marginalized communities face, which can be really, really tough. And challenging. I’m wondering if you sort of experience anything like that in your career, or have you experienced anything like that sort of studying and growing up in Australia?
Maggie Zhou: So I do think microaggressions are just a part of the of the person of color experience. Yeah. Um ah I like how you kind of pointed out different examples from workplaces to friendships to just general living, because I do think they do kind of you kind of come up against them in many facets of your life. Ah, I would like to also say that especially like the circles of people I surround myself with, and especially with more education in recent years, like it’s not something that I come up very commonly against. And again, I do want to point out my privilege here. Like I’m light skinned. I can speak fluent English. I’ve grown up here, so I know I don’t face the same difficulties as even other Chinese people, right? Yeah. Um, but for sure, I think in workplaces something that comes up is, you know, or even in schools, this was a big thing of just being lumped in with the Asians. Like, we’re just a like homogenous, homogenous, homogenous, homogenous glob. And we’re like the Asians. Right. And and you’re studying to be a scientist. Oh, yeah. Of course, we’re all doctors, all doctors, all doctors. Obviously that’s your dream, right? Yeah. Not me dropping science as soon as possible. Um, I wish I knew more about science, but my brain doesn’t feel wired that way. Um, but then again, I think in friendship groups, just people not really understanding, cultural traditions, traditions and respecting, I guess, things that potentially, like my family does, or making me feel really, like alienated or weird because of some of, um, like, my Chinese ness. Uh, I think that Microaggressions can range from something really small to something really big, and we’ve recently even heard about the ABC’s report into racism faced by people of colour, where they interviewed about 120 past and present employees, and only one of them said that they hadn’t, like, hadn’t been affected by racism at work, which is just astounding.
Louis Harrison: I think that’s also really interesting to bring that up because it is such a topical thing and we are talking about it more and those conversations are happening, and it’s so important to have space for that dialogue, but also to recognize that, I don’t know, I feel like we place a lot of the burden of explaining on people from the marginalized communities. I’m wondering if you have much experience on that, like almost feeling expected to educate and to bring up those difficult conversations and to call out bad behavior.
Maggie Zhou: It’s such a great question. I feel like when I was starting out with writing, so in my early kind of freelance career days, this would have been around 2020, I would say. So about like half a decade ago, almost. That’s wild. I know. Like that’s just I know that’s a lot of time does not feel like that. Um, but, uh, I actually felt this internalized pressure to kind of mine my, like, cultural experiences or quote unquote, like trauma, uh, for, like, publications or for content. And there’s a few parts to that, I think, especially around like, the 20 tens to the 2020s. It was quite like a trendy thing for, like, people and like women to put their very personal experiences out there for content and for engagement and stuff. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I think that was just like what was expected of people. I felt like that’s what I needed or that’s what people wanted from me. I had an editor, actually, who was so great, and her words have still stuck with me. Alice Griffin. And at the time, she was the editor of MTV Australia. And I’d written a couple pieces about, like, um, things about racism and stuff, and she did take me aside and was like, hey, you know, you don’t have to write about this if you don’t want. We’re so happy to hear about, like, your pop culture takes and other stuff. Like, we don’t expect this from you. And that was a really nice validation moment for me. So, um, I definitely feel like I’m in a place now where I’m more choosy about what I speak about, and especially if it’s more personal. but it’s not that I regret the past pieces I’ve written and such, but I can now look back in hindsight and know that I did feel a bit of pressure, even if it was internal pressure to put out writing like that.
Louis Harrison: Yeah, that’s really, really interesting. And honestly, such good advice from Alice. Yeah, and really, really important and definitely something that a lot of people in your position need to hear. So thank you so much for sharing that. Of course, I’m kind of also wondering how you do manage to balance, like with that hindsight of knowing that you don’t have to talk about these things and that sometimes it’s not beneficial for you to talk about these things? How do you find that balance between sharing and choosing to say, this is actually a boundary that I’m putting in place? I don’t want to talk about that.
Maggie Zhou: Yeah, I love this because I think, yeah, back in the day, I didn’t really have much of that boundary. I kind of just put everything out there on the internet. Um, but now I just think I prioritize my. Oh, I wouldn’t really even say privacy because I don’t think I’m that private, but I do still prioritize things that are just for me or just for my loved ones. Right? Yeah. Um, and I think time is a good indicator of that. I don’t want to I don’t sorry, I don’t feel like I have to rush into telling my, like, secrets or my story at the drop of a hat. I kind of like sitting with something for a few months. A good example for this, for instance, this year on social media, I disclosed that I had like an autoimmune condition, but I actually received the diagnosis for that maybe three years ago. But it was something that I didn’t want to share yet. And, the time kind of felt right for myself that I felt like I could share that. So yeah, I think time is a really, like, great gift that we have on our side that we should use more.
Louis Harrison: Yeah, that’s really, really interesting. And I think it’s also interesting how you sort of do use social media like you are quite an active presence on social media. You’re a little bit of an influencer in the fashion and sort of ethical fashion space and things like that. And also touching back on the fact that you’re a freelancer. Language and expression are pretty big in your every part of your life. Really. It’s not even just your career. I’m wondering how language and expression and sort of you mentioned before not being able to speak fluent Mandarin, and that’s like your, um, your family’s tongue and things like that. I’m wondering how that sort of plays into how you feel as a communicator and how you communicate with your loved ones. Mhm. Yeah. So in our household, we, we predominantly speak this dialect called Chaozhou which is mainly spoken in the south of China as well as some other Asian countries. It’s not very common, but it also is so sorry. When I went back to China, before I went back to China last year, I was like, wow, we speak this super unique like dialect. No one speaks it. And then I went. When I went back to China, I literally went to a museum dedicated to like people of our like ethnicity and people who, like, speak this background. I’m like, oh, okay. There’s like a million, like there’s like millions of us who speak this around the world. I digress. So at home we speak smatterings of this dialect mixed in with English. Interestingly enough, my parents actually don’t speak Mandarin at home. Even though they speak Mandarin and Cantonese, they just don’t really. So I never really grew up with those two tongues in my household. Yeah. How does that affect how I communicate with loved ones, though? I feel like with my parents, I feel really it’s it’s a really natural integration of these, like, mismatched languages together. Um, I have found it interesting navigating, um, conversations sometimes just because my parents, like my mom, moved here when she was in her late 20s. My dad about the same time as well. There it was quite early on when my English surpassed my mum’s, let’s say, in terms of fluency. But it’s never been something that’s gone in the way of communication. I would say her English is great. My dad actually works as an interpreter, so his English is great, too. I think this language barrier mainly comes about with my family from overseas when we have, like, brief FaceTime calls or phone calls or even seeing each other in person. Like, I can kind of we can kind of make do with this dialect, but it is, um, definitely difficult.
Louis Harrison: Yeah, it does sound a bit difficult. And it’s also really interesting, the different dialects and your experience of finding out that there’s actually a lot of people that speak the same. Sort of tongue that you do? Um, yeah. Incredible. And so much of your career does sort of rely on you communicating and things like that. So also a really interesting insight. Gonna pivot back to the resilience part of this podcast. So you’ve faced a fair bit of adversity. And we’re not going to necessarily unpack that. But I’m wondering if you have any parting advice for listeners who might be finding it a bit challenging to either connect with their culture or might be feeling a bit distant from their culture? Um, how have you sort of developed that resilience?
Maggie Zhou: Yeah, of course. I think at the end of the day, it’s knowing that it’s inside you that your culture is you. You are part of that culture almost, whether you like it or not. No one can take that away from you, is what I’m trying to say. There is no kind of test that you have to do to be accepted. Know that you are just intrinsically accepted. Also think, um, something that helped me is interrogating why I felt like I needed to prove who I was or my culture to people. And I think just looking at that question that you might be posing to yourself and thinking, hey, like, am I trying to prove myself to like my white peers? Am I trying to prove myself to my family? Like, what actually is it? And I think at the end of the day, it is about your relationship to yourself and your own culture, and it is less about the outside noise. Yeah, incredible. And thank you so much for coming on. Stories of community resilience. Where can people find you if they want to read more of your stuff or interact with you? Yes. So like, what are your socials? Yeah, I’m on my socials, my handles. So on the photo app it is. @yemagz, which is y e m a g z on the clock app. It is Maggie underscore Zhao that’s z h o u. You can find Culture Club podcasts on your podcast platforms as well. Amazing. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much for having me.
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